Episode 3.18: Pivot Ahead
THE PODCAST: June 8, 2021
ON FEEDBACK FROM OUR LISTENERS - WHAT WE HEARD + WHAT’S TO COME
Tim & Tuesday are joined by fellow Outsider, Jermaine Henry, where they reflect together on feedback from our listeners and brainstorm the possibilities of the podcast moving forward. Hint - Jermaine will be involved!
Together, Tim Merry and Tuesday Ryan-Hart are THE OUTSIDE—systems change and equity strategists who bring the fresh air necessary to organize movements, organizations, and collaborators forward for progress, surfacing new mindsets for greater participation and shared impact.
3.18 — SHOW NOTES
Tim: As many of our listeners know, we did some listener interviews and we're going to reflect on some of what we heard. And also part of today is for us to begin to think about where we're taking the podcast as we go into the future as well. So we've brought Jermaine Henry on and in with us, because he is going to be part of the podcast as we go forward. Today is really a kind of reflection on where we've been, and what we've heard from listeners, and a brainstorm in many ways about where we might go from here going forward.
Jermaine Henry: Thank you so much. I'm so excited and nervous at the same time. I'm a fan first, but I'm also a friend.
Tuesday: When Tim and I thought about who we could have on here chatting with us, Jermaine felt like the obvious person on the team; not only because of your [Jermaine's] radio voice, but because of your background.
Jermaine: I'm a systems change, with equity at the center, practitioner. I do a lot of facilitation in community and with different organizations around culture, around anti oppression or pro liberation, as I like to speak on it, around arts and mental health. I've been in that world for the last 10 years or more, offering my skills of holding space for folks, but also helping them bring animation with myself, but also helping others to animate and bring their own voices. I've been coining this term of "braver spaces" - how can we create these spaces where people can be bold, real, awkward, vulnerable, and expressive in their relationship? So that's me. I'm also a hip hop artist, a poet, and I'm the son of Dawn and Mervyn.
Tim: In many ways, the pod has been a place where Tuesday and I connect to each other and, it's been, for both of us, the basis and often an oasis of reflection in a world and a life that is often driven towards delivery. Whether that's in relationship to clients, whether that's like getting my kids to school on time, getting my dog to the vet... I think this period of life we've both been in has been demanding in terms of what we had to give. And so the pod has been a place where we've been able to settle with each other and just sink into some of those deeper questions and really enjoy being in relationship over the last three years.
Tuesday: That's right. And it's shifted every year. In the first season, we talked a lot about some of our ideas about our work / key concepts in our work. And in the second year, we certainly kept that up. And we maybe talked about the work itself a little bit more. And then this season, we've talked more about ourselves personally, in our own personal journey. And so every season has a bit of a different flavour. And so we decided to talk with listeners: Why are you all listening? What are you getting from it? How can we actually follow our bliss, and be responsive to the people who want to listen to us? And so that's the spirit in which we asked people to do interviews with our podcast producer, Mark Coffin.
Jermaine: It's interesting because a lot of [podcast listeners] are similar to my story - engaged first with some type of work, whether it was the Art of Hosting, or some other work, or just kind of knowing y'all as friends, or as colleagues, or as trainers, and then coming into the podcast. So there's really like this feel of we know them. That's the field, like this adoration of like, wow, Tim and Tuesday do such great work. But then also like, “Oh, I know them, we've done work with them before.” And I just get to go and get to know y'all more. One thing that really stood out, over and over that came up was the vulnerability and being able to have those vulnerable conversations cross race, cross gender and class. And people even remarked on having some of the conversations that they're afraid to have in the work, but they're able to hear it with you to having that. So I actually want to pause to ask, “how does that resonate with you two hearing that some of those tough conversations, even on equity and certain things like that? Because it sounds like you're just talking to yourselves, but people are listening.”
Tim: I think that's one of the beauties of the pod - in many ways we feel like we're alone. I’m face to face with one of my best friends and we're just talking about things that feel real and true to us in the way that we talk about things. I'm very rarely prepared for the kind of depth of conversation that we're going into, it's often that one of us has been thinking about something or mulling something over. And then we get on the pod, and we literally begin to pull it apart with each other, whether it's the stories of our ancestry, whether it's our relationships to wealth, whether it’s how we even work with the patterns of race and class in our own lives, and then face to face as we work with our clients and the choices we make around that, you know? Yeah, I just feel incredibly lucky that I have someone in my life that I can be in that quality of conversation with.
Tuesday: I think it's really interesting to me to hear that and it feels great. That feels like it [podcast] serves folks who are afraid or don't know how to have these conversations. That feels really good to hear that we're being helpful in that way.
Jermaine: There's different kinds of listeners and the interesting thing is that people appreciate the personal aspects of your relationship and like getting to know you two, however, it seems like it's important when it's connected to the work at The Outside. What listeners also appreciate is the entertainment in every episode and how important that is. Your relationship is so fun and loving. Because some of these conversations most of the conversations can get dry but you bring a life and levity to it.
Tuesday: As an aside, we’re in the midst of writing a book chapter and part of that is talking about the spirit with which we come into this work. And I feel like that's so important, because we're dealing with such tough issues with our clients, or they're always dealing with tough stuff, right? It’s not something you can solve easily. And so bringing joy and humour helps. I'm really glad that comes across on the podcast, kind of a little bit of teasing, a little bit of silliness. A little bit of ridiculousness. The work is serious enough, I don't have to bring all that with me. I can bring some joy and bring some levity and bring some can do.
Jermaine: Mark asked the question, “what would it mean to see the podcast grow or evolve?" One of the responses was that “what I like about the podcast is them TnT, that's fine, if you want to put other people on in the forefront of the business. But the magic is in the relationship. And both, such as solid, amazing, wise, grounded people on their own. But I would love if either one of them we're to bring that magic, you can involve other folks into it, but just love to hear the evolution of the business. And just keep that going.”
Tuesday: Mmmmm… that’s landing deep for me, because, of course, this is a question for the podcast, but it's a question we're in at The Outside in general. We’ve referenced it multiple times that we're trying to figure out what is the right role for Tim and I, how do we make sure that our very talented, deeply skilled and competent team is also seen as The Outside? And of course, we're in relationship with the Outsiders, but how do we actually bring those folks that might want to work with us into relationship with the Outsiders as well? So it's great to hear that folks both can feel the relationship and kind of can ascend that because I think that that's true. I think we have a base assumption through experience that the work is going to be done well, right, when we're all together. What makes The Outside, The Outside, in some ways, is the relationships. And so I'm really pleased to hear that folks are like, okay, you can bring other folks in, and to make sure the focus is on relationships that feels like, oh, we can do that.
Tim: What’s the right balance between Tim and Tuesday's explorations on our relationship? What's the right balance of bringing in the work and bringing in voices from outside into the pod? And, I think where we're landing is how can the pod stream as a whole become more varied? I think Tues and I are going to continue "TnT Ramblings" which is us just getting on and talking about things we care about and we love. But I think we're going to start adding elements into the stream of the pod now as well, in terms of some interviews with people, and some other people beginning to host it, and you'll see them as they come in on the stream about what they might be. But that's about as far as we've got in our brainstorming at the moment.
Jermaine: Folks definitely want to hear from guests - some influencers, some thought leaders in the sector. And then also wanting to hear from other Outsiders and clients and hearing about the work and the people that you're working with.
Tim: I think there's three elements moving forward: (1) TNT Talks, (2) Table Talks - where we're bringing people in leading thinkers interview-style, and (3) Inside The Outside - where we're bringing people into the actual work we're doing, we're getting people and individuals we're working with, we're engaging with how we're driving the work as Outsiders in developmental evaluation or visual language or the facilitation work or the systems strategy work.
Song: “Eternal Light,” by Free Nationals & ChronixxPoem: “Are You Being?” An original poem by Jermaine Henry
Are You Being?Am I being?
I'm always being even when I'm overthinkin'.
I'm always being even in times of forgettin'.
Forgettin', who I am and what I am.
A human being, a spirit, a collection of cells; vibrating at the frequency of love.
I am Self, a part of the collection of souls animating source.
I am presence. I am a gift from grace.
I am a full breath. Both inhale and exhale.
I am a Poet. A feeling and expression.
I am complex yet simple.
I am being and non-being.
Ebbing and flowing through space and time.
I am indescribable yet there are so many ways to describe me.
I am truth; ever changing yet my essence remains the same.
I'm more than a name.
I'm more than what I do.
I'm me.
I'm you.
I'm being.
Subscribe to the podcast now—in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher or anywhere else you find podcasts. New episodes will be available every second Tuesday. If you’d like to get in touch with us about something you heard on the show, reach us at podcast@findtheoutside.com.
Find the song we played in today’s show - and every song we’ve played in previous shows - on the playlist. Just search ‘Find the Outside’ on Spotify.
Duration: 54:08
Produced by: Mark Coffin
Theme music: Gary Blakemore
Episode cover image: source